Episode Transcript
[00:00:07] Speaker A: Welcome to on the Fringe. I'm Ann Larson. The electrical industry is facing some of the biggest workforce challenges it's ever seen. And behind every project, every negotiation, and every labor agreement are people. Today, I'm joined by Jack Savage, executive director of NECA's eastern region, to talk about workforce development, leadership, and why taking care of people may be the most important job any of us have. Let's dig in.
So I want to talk to you first about just how you joined Nika and your. The different jobs you've had inside of Nika.
[00:00:39] Speaker B: Well, in a past life, I was an attorney. I like to say I'm a recovering attorney. I did not enjoy being an attorney. So I actually left that profession a long time ago and was just kind of, you know, not sure what I was going to do with my life at that point. I was in my late 30s, and I started a nonprofit, and I was doing, like, a video that had a little video business and just kind of floating around and trying to figure things out.
And around that time, I got engaged and thought, I'm going to need to get a real job again and figure this out pretty quickly. And the next day, I got a call from a partner, a former partner at my law firm, who I hadn't talked to in years.
And he said, have you ever heard of Nika? And I said, no, I have not.
I didn't know anything about this world. He had taken on the position of the local chapter manager in Youngstown, Ohio, the Mahoning Valley chapter. And he had been there for about eight years, and he was getting ready to retire. He asked if I was looking for a change, and I said, I am. So he came and explained the position to me and the whole. The world. It's a new world, really.
I didn't understand any of it, but he told me that he was not going to retire until he found someone that he felt good about to replace him because the people at the chapter had treated him so well over the years that he was not going to leave until he felt they were in good hands. And I basically took that job on, you know, because of that. I thought, well, that sounds like a nice place to work, and I can, you know, learn the rest of the. So I was the chapter manager of the Mahoning Valley chapter for about five years, and it was 2019. I went to work for NECA national as a field representative.
I represented seven or eight chapters. I represented most of almost all of Ohio, all of Pennsylvania. At one point. I had, like, Buffalo and Rochester had some different areas.
And then in 2023, about three years ago, right around this time, actually, I became the executive director of the eastern region of neca. And the eastern region covers all the New England states. New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, D.C. ohio, Kentucky, West Virginia, little sliver of Michigan, little sliver of Virginia. And I think that's. I think that's it.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: So I know there's a few other chapter managers who were attorneys or maybe still are. I'm not really sure. Do you think there's something about being a lawyer? I know you didn't like being a lawyer, but is there something. Clearly, everybody changed their job, so maybe they didn't like being a lawyer either, either. Something about not liking being a lawyer or being a lawyer that makes for a good chapter manager?
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Yes. I think there are a lot of, you know, things I learned in law school and my career as a lawyer that translate pretty well to the job of being either a chapter manager or, you know, a field working in the field. Which field? Reps, by the way, just kind of support the chapters. They're there to help with negotiations and grievances if they need to, and answer questions and whatnot. But, for example, one of the things that translates pretty well is just researching, you know, answers. We deal with contracts or collective bargaining agreements.
A lot of the language in those agreements are fuzzy. So, you know, my experience in contracts, reading contracts, drafting contracts, you know, those come in handy, and then researching, you know, the meanings of certain things and, you know, putting together a lot of times arguments if there's a grievance, putting together arguments on for our side of the grievance, or putting together agreements that make sense, some compromise where both. That's oftentimes how grievances are worked out.
And most lawyers will tell you that most cases don't go to trial. They get. They get settled beforehand. And so there's a lot of things that translate well.
One thing that I didn't have and I still work on every day is industry knowledge. I was, you know, I was not a lot of chapter managers came, you know, from the industry. They're former wire men or former contractors or worked for a contractor. I had no industry experience whatsoever. And so I brought certain things to the table and I relied on, you know, my. My board or my coworkers with Nika national to provide, you know, maybe some of the things that I'm missing, like industry knowledge.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: But you love working for Nika. I can see it. I see you at a lot of the progress meetings. And Nika show and other places, and you clearly enjoy it. So it's different than being a lawyer. There's some things that translate, that maybe the best things translate, but there's the things you don't like, aren't there. I'm guessing it depends on what you
[00:05:25] Speaker B: do and where you practice and everything. And everybody's different. I found being a lawyer to be a combination of boredom and stress, which is like, not a great combination for me, at least what I was, what I was doing, I was working with great people. I've been blessed in that regard, had some great friends, in fact, one of which I dragged into the Nika world. But it just was a lot of waiting around, a lot of kicking the can down the road, and I just, you know, at the same time being very stressful, working in the three different jobs I've had with Nika, all three at times and oftentimes can be stressful. It is never boring. I mean, never boring. Every day is something different. You know, I have. I'm still, you know, old school. I've posted notes on my desk with, you know, my to do lists, and if I ever get to number one on my to do list before lunch, you know, it's a miracle that almost never happens because it's just. You don't know what the day is going to bring. And, yeah, sometimes that causes stress, but it is. It is always interesting. It's never boring. And I always talk about Nika time. Since I've been with Nika, it goes by so fast. I still feel like I'm new, you know, one of the new people. And it's July 1st, will be 14 years since I started with the local chapter. It blows my mind that it's been that long, but it's because it's just constant.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: So tell me a little bit about that. Like, what does your normal day look like? There is no normal day. But what are the things that come up for you?
[00:06:49] Speaker B: Yeah, typically I'll tell you a little bit about my team first and then it'll kind of maybe lend itself to my days. But the eastern region consists of myself as the executive director, and then I have four field reps. Jay Jones, who's an ib, former IBW wireman. Rose Hainsley, who has a background in human resources. And she's been with Nika, I think, coming. I think 20 years or more since. Or coming up on 20 years she's been with Nika.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Was she up in Buffalo?
[00:07:18] Speaker B: She's Buffalo, yeah. Jay Jones is in New Jersey and he's been with. They've all been with Nika longer than I have, except for one, which I'll get to. But Steve Allred is also former IBW Wireman chapter manager. He was a chapter manager in West Virginia. He is a field rep out of West Virginia. He covers West Virginia and D.C. maryland and parts of Ohio.
And then Tom Lipka, who is the person I said I dragged from my old. My old law firm, he took over for me at the local chapter in Youngstown, and then when I moved up to, joined me with Nika national as a field rep.
So we have. My team is unbelievable. We all kind of bring little different things to the table.
And between the five of us, or among the five of us, I guess I should say, we really have things covered and we really do a good job. We really work well together. A typical mother isn't a typical day. You're absolutely right. I do a lot of. I do a lot of traveling. I go to a lot of meetings and events, but both in the region and then nationally as well. But the phone ringing is what tells me what kind of day it's going to be. And a lot of times when things get to me and people are calling me with an issue, it's escalated. So things start at the local level with the job site, and then if there's a problem or potential grievance or some kind of issue, it'll escalate to the chapter manager and the local business manager. And then if they can't get things worked out or they need a little help getting things worked out, escalate to one of those, one of the field reps I just mentioned, if it's still, you know, they still need push over the finish line, It'll escalate to myself and my IBW counterpart, which would be the vice president is the. Is their title. So typically when things get to me, you know, the fire's burning pretty good and we need to figure things out. Now, I will say our chapters across the region do a unbelievable job. They have great relationships with their local business managers and locals and. And then when they do escalate things, our team is just unbelievable. So, fortunately, most things get resolved before they get to me, but when they get to me, you know, sometimes it could take a while.
So phone call, mix in, you know, reports that I need to put together on the region, zoom calls, you know, podcasts, but just kind of, you know, random things like that. And then I travel. I probably sleep away from home on average two nights a week. So some weeks I'm Home, you know, this week I'm home all week and you know, and then some weeks I'm gone for the whole week. So it averages out. But yeah, it's a lot and a lot of hours. A lot of, you know, strange hours sometimes.
But like I said, it's always interesting.
[00:09:53] Speaker A: Well, I'm curious when that call comes in now that you, I mean you've been doing this a while.
So when that call comes in where it's like the fire is burning and you're probably maybe just hearing about it for the first time. Usually in that scenario, if we know
[00:10:08] Speaker B: and things are bubbling a little bit, if my field reps hear something, typically they'll let me know or if, unless they think I got this handle, I'm not gonna, you know, won't bother em until need be. So it's probably 50, 50.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: So if you, if you get a call where like a fire's burning and you've never heard of it about it before, it's just like this is a surprise. How do you handle that? What is your like go to kind of calming Cause you wanna stay calm, right? You wanna stay clear headed in that situation. What are your strategies or steps for staying cool in those situations?
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Well, I think again my training as an attorney helps with that. When I was a lawyer you get calls, you get questions, clients calling you with this and that rarely would I just say oh, the answer is A, B and C. Most of the time it's okay, let me look into that.
I want to make sure I'm telling you the right thing. And a lot of times just taking a break when it gets whatever level it's at, just taking a break where maybe emotions are running high and people are freaking out, sometimes just take it. Just letting things cool a little bit just is actually a good thing. And that gives you time to look into things as well. So I struggled with that when I first started not knowing the answers right away. And then I finally decided, of course I don't know the answers. I'm new, I don't know the industry. So I'm completely comfortable with not having answers and I think my team would tell you that. But I want to get the right answer. I don't want to give them what just something I think might be right or whatever. So we have a labor relations department which is excellent that any one of us can go to with certain questions. Have you heard this before? So they have a little bit of a wider net. They have the history of cir that they can look at which is our arbitration process to see if there's been decisions in the past on similar issues.
But I think the number one thing that helps me stay calm when, especially when I'm hearing about something for the first time is I will hear this story and. And it will be like, oh, you know, the sky is falling. And they did all this stuff to us. And I've learned over the years that is half of the story. And there's way more to the story than we're hearing right now. So I've learned to take the first thing you hear with a grain of salt, know that we need to dig into this a little bit more, talk to our counterparts on the IBW side. They have a completely different story that they're hearing and sharing with us. And usually, sometimes, usually the truth falls somewhere in the middle. When that is the case, then there's some grounds where you can. We can work out a compromise or figure things out. Not always, but a lot of times. So that helps a lot knowing that, okay, whatever's going on right now, there's more to this. Let's dig into it a little bit. And sometimes the solutions will present themselves.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Yeah, I kind of feel the same, although I tend to need a lot of processing time. So when I hear about things, I'm like, sometimes I had to sit on it for a while. So how do you. Because you probably need to get things moving pretty fast. How do you keep it going? Like, what's the first. Who's the first person you call? Then you call labor relations or you
[00:13:09] Speaker B: talk to the field rep. My immediate supervisor is Steve Krieg. He's the vice president of field services and labor relations.
I'll oftentimes reach out to him. Steve's been at it for a long time, so he just. Based on his experience, he'll a lot of times have some answers or suggestions for me or, you know, seeing similar issues.
And I like to keep him in the loop because if it does get escalated above me, I want to make sure that they're, you know, like we talked about earlier, there's something bubbling here. You may hear about this down the road, but then typically, yeah, conversation with him, get some in some input from Steve. And then almost always we'll also reach out to the labor relations guys who I know very well, have great relationship with. Our whole team does and just get their input. They kind of put their heads together with Jeff Fagan, too, is our coo. He is an attorney as well. They all kind of put their heads together, look at, you know, history and, you know, whatever resources they have and try to come up with kind of a group answer or solution or strategy, you know, whatever we're looking for. And that's just, you know, that's just very valuable. So a lot of times I maybe I think I'll know the answer. I'll have a strategy in mind. And maybe not a lot of times, but sometimes if it's a particular sticky issue or something, I'll still get. Even if I think I'm feeling pretty good about it, I'll still get their input because you just never know. Everybody's seen different. Different things, and so that's kind of how it works.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: How long does that resolution typically take? Like, are there issues that you can just, like, solve in a day? There's just issues that come to your desk and you're like, I got it and it's done. Or are these, like, typically longer?
You're looking at them for a few weeks, months.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: So typically, pretty quick. The typical ones are a question, hey, we're ever, you know, we have an issue over portability. Their contractors doing this and the local saying that they can't do that, and we say, oh, no, no. Well, here's what the contract says, and then kind of push it back to the local parties and they figure it out. That's typically how it. How it resolves itself.
It's the bigger issues, and those can go on for months. I've been dealing with, with a few recently, and especially with all the big projects that we're having, the data centers and the work workforce is, you know, trying to find people. And the bigger the projects, the more problems there are potentially, and especially when it's new to an area, then areas kind of figure things out a little bit. But so, yeah, so there are issues out there that can go on for months.
And typically we have time because of our. Do you want me to. Should I talk about our CIR process?
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. And tell me what CIR stands for again.
[00:15:49] Speaker B: Council on Industrial Relations.
I'm one of the panelists on there. So we have a panel of IBW and NECA participants that will any negotiations or grievances that cannot be handled or settled at home through the local parties trying to work through it. If they can't work through it, then our team, our field reps, go in with their IBW counterparts and try to kind of mediate and figure out something locally. Again, whether it's a grievance or a negotiation. If that doesn't resolve it, then it goes to cir, which is Council on Industrial Relations or Council. It goes to council.
And council happens four times a year. Once in February, once in May, once in August, and once in November. Number it's in Washington D.C. and you travel down and it's an intimidating process. You walk into this room and you have to present your case. And we're at the panels, there's 12 people around the. It's like a U shaped table and you present your case and then the panel asks questions. And you know, it can get, you know, pretty intense, some of the questions and you go back and forth. And it's a process that I really enjoy and my background really lends itself to that.
Just we were at council, the May session was this last week.
So all of that. The reason I went into that was because you were asking about a timeframe. So typically if an issue can't be resolved, it'll be resolved at council. And we know how much time we have until the next.
[00:17:20] Speaker A: So it could be two or three months or it could be two or three weeks or two or three days.
Like would it be. Could it be that short of a time to prep?
[00:17:29] Speaker B: It could. So they have to request. So say for this May session, you have to request papers by April 20, the month before the 20th or the month before.
So if this grievance happens on April 18 or something, you know, that's when. And whoever the local, usually the local, if they think, okay, I'm gonna. This potentially could go to council in May, I'm gonna request papers right now. Even though we may work it out, I'm gonna request the papers by the 20th. They request papers, then they try to work it out. If they can't work it out by the 1st of May, they need to submit their briefs and, you know, kind of be ready to go to council, which is usually in the middle of the month. So you still have a couple of weeks after that.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: That's a short turnaround time for those later issues.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: It is. And they could also, if it's not something where the clock's ticking or there's any urgency to it, they could say, you know what, we'll go through the process and then we'll wait till August. They can wait till August. We'll go through the process, Council on August too. So there are times when it's like, you know, drop the dishes, we need to figure this out. We have no time. But typically there's some time where there's more urgency is when there's something going on a site and, you know, maybe a contractor needs Workers on Monday, and the locals doesn't have them. And they're saying you can't bring in your own people from your, you know, from your home local. And, you know, there's those kind of issues where if we don't resolve it right now, that contractor is going to be behind and they have contractual obligations to the customer. We have to do everything we can to help them. You know, we run into those kind of problems a lot. Those typically get figured out quickly and locally.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: So what is your role at cir? Are you up there defending or no?
[00:19:13] Speaker B: So the two. So let's say Mahoney Valley chapter, my old chapter, and Local 64, which is the local out of Youngstown, Ohio, say they had negotiations and they couldn't come to an agreement. So they would go to council and the chapter and maybe a contractor or two would come with them, would sit at one table, and the business manager and, you know, maybe a business agent or president from the local would sit with he or she at that. At their table. They present. One side gives an opening, the other side gives an opening. Then there's a rebuttal, the other side gets a rebuttal, and then there's questions. I sit on the panel. Yeah. So the panel is made up of the NECA side is one chapter manager, and they're usually assigned for, I think, a few years, but there's one on each panel. There's one chapter manager, there's two contractors.
So contractors lend their time and come to D.C. to sit and help with this process. There's a director, which is where I come in, and then the cat bird, who's kind of the quarterback for the team, and Steve Krieg, who I mentioned earlier. My. He's our. He's our catbird. And then we have a functionary who's like a secretary, and it's one of the labor relations guys, typically, who serves in that role.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: You would always be sitting for your area or do you sit for other. Like if Frank had an issue or Woody had an issue, would you. Would. Do you guys cover each other's areas or is it like you're covering yours?
[00:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah, mostly we cover other areas. Occasionally you'll sit on your own case. We've been in the eastern region, very fortunate the last three, actually, before I had this position even four or five years, we've had very few cases go to council, which is great. So I primarily am sitting on other cases.
But yeah. And the re. And I failed to mention this earlier, but the reason why council is such a big Deal. And I don't know of any other trades that have the same thing, but it is. Almost all of our agreements have CIR Council in their agreements. There's a few that don't, but the ones that have it in their agreements do not strike, Cannot strike. There cannot be a work stoppage or a lockout. Cannot lockout or strike. So any, you know, when a CBA is up and they can't resolve it at home, instead of going to a strike or a lockout or, you know, and affecting the customers, work goes on. We have this process, you know, it's coming and, you know, that's how it's. That's how it's worked out. So it's huge for.
Huge in the electrical.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I know in our area we just had plumbers and pipefitters strike. At least they authorized it, but I think they got the contract signed now. But yeah, it's scary.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: So last year, the year before that, I. There was a strike somewhere out west, I can't remember, because there, like I said, there's a few. There's a percentage of contracts that don't have CIR in their. In their agreement. And it's just a nightmare for everybody. You know, the workers aren't getting paid, contractors aren't able to fulfill their contractual obligations. The customer's not getting their, you know, work done that they need done. And it's just so for the most part, we, we can avoid that.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: And you think CIR is a good process? It works well for you?
[00:22:19] Speaker B: I think it's a really good process. We always say. My former boss, Steve Jesley, was the director before me, and he was with Nika for a long time, but he used to always say, we don't want your business at meaning council. We don't want. You don't come here because you're going to have a bunch of strangers that are going to decide something for you. We don't live where you live. We don't know, you know, the little intricacies you're giving us your cases or whatever. But ultimately you're putting this decision in the hands of, you know, people that don't understand your area like you do.
That being said, as an alternative to striking, yes, it is a huge benefit. I've been on council for three years now, and I feel like the last, probably the last two years, it's really come a long way where I really feel like both sides, the IBW side and the Nika side, we're really working together as opposed to just continuing a negotiation or continuing a grievance and fight. We try to look at everything that's presented and come up with what makes the most sense for the area as best as we can.
And that's how it's supposed to work. We're supposed to, you know, I'm supposed to take off my Nika hat when I go in there and the ibw, same thing, and do what's best for the industry. We're there for the industry. We're not there for one side or the other.
So of course there's biases and, you know, we have arguments and disagreements and things. But I'm really happy with the way things have been working, especially the last year and a half, two years. And I would not trade CIR for the alternative for anything.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: I like the idea of a, you know, experienced, but at least somewhat neutral. I mean, as neutral as you can be, a group that decides. But there's 12 people, you said. So how does that work if there's six and six? But, you know, if it comes down to a tie, it can't be a tie, right? You have to come up. You have to have an answer at the end of it, right?
[00:24:10] Speaker B: Well, we do have an option, but it's an option nobody likes at first of all. It has to be unanimous decision.
Supreme Court.
There's no dissenting opinion or anything like that.
Gosh, since I've been around three years, I don't. I think we've gotten there on every single case, I believe, and we probably hear, I don't know, I'm just throwing a number out. Maybe 50 cases a year, 40, 50 cases a year, something like that. It's very rare that we don't come eventually to a decision. If we cannot, it then goes to David Long, our CEO, and Kenny Cooper, the IBEW president, to decide. And everybody that's there in one way or another works for those gentlemen. And we don't want to send it to them. We want to take care of it.
We want to take care of it if we can, because they have a lot of other things that they're responsible for and dealing with. And so we most overwhelmingly, we get the decision worked out. It takes. I was on one where we were working on one case for 15 hours, and the parties, I think, had spent five hours negotiating on that one.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: But it got there. You got there.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: I remember that. But we got there. It took a long time, but we got.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: So back to something you mentioned earlier, the workforce shortage. What are some developments in that area?
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Well, we're working on a lot. There's a bunch of stuff going on behind the scenes and some things going on, going on that are, you know, a little over my head that I don't know a lot of details about. But I do know somebody said this. We had a meeting, my team and one of the IVW districts that we work with at a meeting to talk about workforce. Actually, we had a meeting to talk about issues and we ended up talking about workforce development the entire time.
[00:25:58] Speaker A: It is kind of the overwhelming issue right now. It seems like not just, I guess, workforce development, but also like it feels like from what we're seeing is that like, you know, you have these huge projects in areas that are very rural and very small locals. And that's just a huge burden on them. And they're long. They're like not. It's not just a few months, it's like years long.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: So, oh, 10, 15 years. Some of these things are crazy and I have some examples of that. But I do. Just real quick, I wanted to use this quote from this rep that we were at this meeting. An IBW rep said if you put enough crumbs on a plate, eventually you have a meal. And I thought that's the perfect way to sum this up because we need to throw everything at. There's no one silver bullet that's going to fix this problem. You know, it's not let's take more premises or let's organize. We need to do everything and anything and new things. And so that's what, you know, we're in the middle of. And that causes a lot of problems too because, you know, new things and you're not supposed to do that, but you're not doing this and. But you're right, these rural areas, we have an example, a really great example in Ohio. I live in Youngstown. This is in the Columbus, Ohio area. Little south. I'm terrible at geography. A little south of Columbus, New Albany. It's local 1105 and it's the Central Ohio chapter covers that area and they have, you know, just an immense amount of work and they have done such a great job of over years building a workforce and manning these jobs. I'm not great with numbers, so these might be a little bit off, but I think I'm pretty close. But 10 years ago they were a 250 person local. Five years ago I think they were a 500 person local. So they doubled and now I believe they're at 3500 last five years. They are such a great example of the local and the chapter Working together in the contractors and the, everybody buying in and rowing in the same direction and you can, you know, you can get that done.
When that ball started rolling, I was still at my chapter. I was before I worked with national. So I'm sure there were hiccups and bumps in the road, you know, to start. But they, you know, work together and figure those things out and they're just really just killing it. And we have another right next door Local 575, also Central Ohio chapter. They are the next one. They already have a bunch of work and they have billions and billions of work coming. And again it's another small local.
And so hopefully that will, you know, they'll look to 1105 as an example and really just kind of do, you know, ride that same wave. The only disadvantage for 575 is their neighbors. 1105, who has all this work also, no problem.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: Well, so what are all the crumbs, what are all the things that 11, 1105 did or some of them?
[00:28:49] Speaker B: Yeah, some. Well, they, they've done it, you know, they've done a great job organizing and going, going after the, you know, the non union. They working with the, working with the chapter. They set up a bounty program using I think every chapter, I think every chapter, not every chapter, but most chapters or most CBAs, I should say, have a labor and management cooperation committee, lmcc.
And so that's basically for every hour worked, some money goes into the LMCC and there's a committee that's half ibew, half NECA that decides, you know, how to use that money. But it's basically anything that betters the industry. Anything that's good for the industry is there's, I think there's a nine or ten categories that you can use it for. But essentially if you're helping the industry, it's going to fit in into those categories.
And they have, in other areas have done this too. But they've used their LMCC money to create a bounty program for. I don't know all the details but I think, you know, it's. Maybe you get a signing bonus if you come over from a non union. If there's a member, a union member that brings someone over themselves, they, you know, they get money. So if they have a friend that's working for a non union competitor and say, hey, come over, you know, come work for us. This is, you know, great over here. Then they get, you know, they get some money.
And so that's been pretty successful. And they also can get A grant. We have a national LMCC that provides grants for things. And they've been providing a lot of grants for workforce development initiatives. So you can get a little bit of money to help out with those programs.
We have a. Well, it used to be called Workforce Development Task Force. Now it's the dod, which I can't remember what it stands for, but it's an IBW and NECA effort. And NECA has not been quite as involved. We're trying to get more and more involved with it. But it's a task force that in an area like 1105 that, that is in desperate need of manpower, they can come in. They call it turning the faucet on. They'll come into your area and they do a bunch of things online, geo fencing and
[00:30:57] Speaker A: Indeed.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: And a bunch of computer stuff that I'm not, you know, I'm not a computer guy. So that I think gets a lot of applications in the FQR codes you can scan and it takes you to the site.
[00:31:07] Speaker A: So like, yeah, geofencing is usually like, if somebody comes into an area, like, they start getting targeted. So you're talking about like bringing in a certain demographic. A certain demographic in the area that you're trying to target to bring in?
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm not involved with that. So, yeah, I don't know a ton of detail as to exactly how it works. But we on the Nika side, we recently.
Well, it's been, gosh, it's probably coming up on two years now. I told you, Nika, time flies. But we have a person that does workforce development. His name's Paul Flynn and he's actually a former IBW business manager out of Illinois, I believe.
And Paul's doing a great job and he's trying to integrate into that DoD task force that I was just talking about and working with our IBEW counterparts.
And Paul is, he's traveling all over the place, everywhere where people need work. But he's helping set up job fairs, both chapter and local wide job fairs. And also contractor specific. If a contractor needs 100 people, they can put on their own job fair with hopefully with cooperation from the local. But those, they've seen some success in some of those areas where they can come to a job fair and say, you know, I'm interested, and then say, okay, here, go over there and sign them up and boom, the next day they're working.
So they've had some success. But so these are all, I guess I'm kind of talking about all the little Crosses.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: There's a lot, I mean there's a lot of little crumbs.
Give examples of that that you want to share. Luke Kuhl talked on the podcast a little bit about the low voltage stuff. You know, really promoting some of that. Maybe it's a faster track to get people going and, you know, just getting more people, more different types of workers more.
[00:32:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I'll tell you, one easy one is just increasing the size of sizes of our apprentice classes. I went to CIR once when I was a chapter manager and it was over taking an apprentice class. We're little chapter, little local. We wanted to take 12 apprentices and the local wanted to take zero apprentice take zero, none. And we went to council over that issue.
Now, I think in most these areas that have all this, all this work, they can't not take more and more apprentices like that is. That's something that people used to fight over. And there's been some areas I told where the contractors were the ones that didn't want to take more apprentices.
I don't know why, but now that is not going to be an issue anymore. We just, you know, we have to take. You have to take as many apprentices as you could physically, you know, fit in your buildings.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: But I assume the locals concern in the past is around making sure that when those apprentices become journeymen that they have worked. Right. I mean that's their concern would be like, I don't see the work in five years. When these guys are done, these people are done.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I under. And I understood that in our case again with 12 versus 0, I felt we had the statistics showing that, yeah, we don't have a ton of work in our area, but we have this percentage of people that are going to be of retirement age in five years when these guys and gals will be topping out. And we need people to replace those people that were.
That we're losing. But I do get that we have other areas where this actually happened. A big project was coming. They amped up and took quadruple amount of apprentices as they've taken in the past to amp up for this project. All of a sudden that project gets delayed for years. Now you have all these apprentices that not only where are you going to put them to work when they become journeymen, although that ended up not that's not going to be a problem, but that could be a problem, but also too, their apprentices, our apprentices work and they make money and if they're Sitting at home and just going to class and they're not making money and they can go to work for one of our competitors down the road tomorrow. You know, that's a big risk of losing people that we've already maybe trained for a couple years and now they're going to go and join the non unions. It is a balancing act. But that's one of those things where I just think we need to do everything we can now and we'll figure out the rest later because we need people now.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: Are there any that haven't worked that you've seen that people have tried? You think that they're going to work and then they're like, no, that was not a good idea.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Well, I've heard of job fairs that were very disappointing in different areas. None specifically that come to mind, but I was told, and I'm not really involved in putting those together, but job fairs are about two things. One is promotion. If nobody knows about the job fair, it doesn't matter. So the job fairs that have done a really good job of promoting it and getting the word out there have had been successful as far as getting people in. And the second thing that's been an issue at times is job fair. Promote it. We get hundreds of people come in, they all want to come and work for us. We don't have any contractors that are there that are ready to hire that day. Maybe they're ready to maybe two months from now you're going to hire. And well, a lot of things can happen over that time. So, you know, a lot of things have to come together for a job fair to be really successful. And if you're missing, you know, one or two of those things, it could be a little bit disappointing. So. But we're learning from those. Yeah, from those things.
[00:36:32] Speaker A: I could see a job fair being a little risky because it does cost, you know, it's a lot to put on an event like that.
Cost people time and money to be there.
You have to bring in the right people for those jobs. Versus I could see a lot of online stuff like you were saying, the DOD brings people. I mean it does more online, maybe to reach more people wherever they are, kind of whenever they are.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: I think that people. Again, back to the crumbs. You know, a job fair, if you have, you know, 200 open calls and you have a job fair and you get eight people, is that successful? It might be success. I mean, again, it's a crumb. You get eight people over here and you get eight people over there. So it's, it's really. I hear this word 50 times a day and I'm going to use it. This is the only time I'm going to say it. We are in unprecedented times. That's the word, unprecedented. We've never seen anything like this. And I think you said it earlier. It's not like this is going to be over in a year or two. This is going to go on for a really long time. So I will tell you one thing. If I was not hugely mechanically inclined, I mean, I could turn a screwdriver and I could do some things here and there, but boy, if I was young or if you know any people looking for. Not even if you're looking for a new career, what an opportunity this is. I mean, we've always had a great story that nobody knew about as far as opportunities. Everybody pushes everybody to college and, you know, the trades kind of got forgotten about. But that's coming back. That is not the case anymore. You can go. Not only do you have no debt coming out of the apprentice program, you're making money through the whole time you're in the apprentice program and then you're coming out and you're making way more money than 90% of college graduates probably are. There's no end in sight to the work. It's a great opportunity for anybody that's able. I don't know that I would pass the math part of the.
[00:38:23] Speaker A: It's something I pushed my kids into.
They resisted.
Neither one of them is into it.
I'm still trying though. They're young, they're still young. My son just turned 18. Still pushing it. Yeah. I mean, I see in our industry, I see so much, and I'm sure lawyers see it too, that AI is taking those kinds of the white collar jobs. Not taking them, but like changing them a lot and making them more efficient. And maybe we need fewer people in those professions. We will need fewer, but we're going to keep needing electricians and plumbers and carpenters and all that.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: And the bigger AI gets and the more we use that, the more electricians we're going to need.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it just, it seems like the right place to be right now.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Somebody said that AI is not going to replace a lot of workers, but it's going to replace a lot of workers that don't know how to use AI.
[00:39:18] Speaker A: I would agree with that. I'm really trying to make sure that everybody here at Corellian knows how to use it. Because if you are resistant to it, it's just not going to work.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I know I'm not resistant to it, but it's now May of 2026. This is my second. This is the second year that my goal was going to be to learn and incorporate AI into my daily, you know, and no, no, that hasn't happened. So I'm a year and a half in. It was supposed to be last year and I didn't. What? Well, it's the whole thing too. My day gets thrown upside down. Excuses. AI would help me with all that stuff. I understand it, but I'm also, you know, a little older and I just want. Yeah. Anyways, I need to learn AI.
[00:40:01] Speaker A: It is a skill. It is a skill, but. And it continues to get better. So it's like, I think it's a lot easier now than it was. You know, there was just like a lot of having to check it before and I still. You may still have to check it.
[00:40:15] Speaker B: I use it a lot without even realizing it. Like Google, I'm googling things a hundred times a day and now I just read the little summary that robot gives me and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm good with it.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: And it's good, right? I mean, it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. I think the leap for me right now is figuring out more agents and skills and building those into my day a little bit more. But I do really like it for things like we have, we have contracts with every one of our clients that are long contracts, you know, I don't know, 20 page contracts or something. There's always little. They are all negotiated again like, like a collective bargaining agreement. They're all negotiated between. Not maybe as much as the cba, but you know, between the two parties. There's fund attorneys and you know, people ask for little changes and it's so hard to track something like that. It's so hard to track like, oh, who asked for that thing? Or I remember negotiating this one piece and somebody else is asking for it. I need to find it.
I'm not going to dig through all that stuff. I mean, I used to have to, I used to have to dig through every contract and be like, I think it was about this time. I think it was maybe this client. And now it's like, I just have a folder. I'm like, scan through this and tell me who has something different in this section. And it's like, oh yeah, these people is the same. These people is different. Like, that's amazing.
[00:41:34] Speaker B: It wasn't that long ago that you would have to, have to have the paper and read the paper.
When I was in undergrad, I'm embarrassed to say this, but I used to write out my papers. You'd go to the library, books, research, write out my papers longhand and then sit at a typewriter. I didn't have a computer. It wasn't that long. I'm not that old. It was early 90s.
I'm a typewriter. I can't imagine. Think about.
[00:42:03] Speaker A: We didn't have email then or it was like I. Mine. My first email was pine. So it was like really, you know, just a text based. There was no. I remember when I switched over to like a prettier format and I was like, oh, you can like format it and make, you know, make things bold or have bullet points. I mean, you couldn't do that before. It was just text.
[00:42:22] Speaker B: It's. I mean, I'm talking to you now through the computer. I don't know how, but I see you, you see me. It's like, yeah, the Jetsons, like that's what.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: You know, it is amazing in our lifetime. Certainly what the change was. I wrote a refone when we were kids and now it's like, now you have this phone in your pocket that isn't even. I mean, you don't even use it as a phone. It's a little computer.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: No, it's a computer. Little computer. Yeah. We had three TV channels.
[00:42:51] Speaker A: It is fun to think about though, how different life is.
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And it does not. Like I said, it doesn't. Well, it seems like a million years ago and then it also doesn't seem that long ago.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:01] Speaker B: We live in interesting times, for sure.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: So we talked about your job and we've talked about manpower. Do you want to get into mental health issues?
Another challenge for the day. Manpower is a big challenge. And also I'm hearing a lot about mental health issues when I go to shows and just hearing about things online.
There's a lot there, I think, in the electrical industry and the trades, I assume in general.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: Trades. Yeah. And I don't. Again, I'm not a numbers. A numbers guy. So I don't know the exact numbers, but it's. Yeah. In the, in the construction industry, not just electric, but the construction industry. The numbers are really scary compared to, you know, the world in general when it comes to, you know, suicide and depression and things like that. I don't know exactly what the reasons are for that, but that's a message that we've really. Nika and the IBEW were absolutely in lockstep on. But It's a message that's being preached at all the IBW progress meetings, all of our meetings. We pass out the coins with the 988 number, the suicide prevention number.
A lot of programs and trainings and how to help people that you think might be going through something. And we're all going through something.
It took me a long time to figure out that I'm not the only one going through stuff. Everybody's got something, and it's very scary in the construction industry. So it's a really important message to get out to everybody that's either going through someone or through something or how you can help, you know, people that you think might be.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel like that's sometimes the problem, right? You see somebody and you're like, I don't wanna.
I don't wanna intrude on their life. It's hard sometimes to reach out for people, to reach out to a friend or colleague to say, like, are you okay?
But I think that's really important.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: You know, it's not a comfortable thing to do. A lot of times a construction site is kind of a macho place and, you know, I don't need help, you know, and I can do, you know, and I, I understand.
I understand that group kind of grew up that way. You know, I think that was.
I think that's changing. I think people are realizing that, you know, we all need some help. But, yeah, it's really difficult to say. Even someone, Even someone you're. Or someone you're close to, it's difficult. Let alone it's just a co worker, you know, hey, man, are you okay? Or something going on. Like, that's a tough question to have. We've recently had some training as to maybe how to approach those things, which has helped. And it's actually, I've. I've used that a little bit.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: Well, tell me more about that. What. What did they recommend? I have. I kind of built my own thing where, like now I think because so many of us are like, on WhatsApp or texting, like, we're not so face to face. I have a tennis group. I play tennis. And so we don't see each other actually that often, but we're like mostly on.
On WhatsApp and. But I'll hear little things like, oh, so and so, you know, there's always like, gossip and little feuds or beefs between people. And I've started to just like, ping the person that usually the person in that situation that I'm. That I know the best and just say like, is everything okay? Do you want to talk about it? And that's, I think that's been nice because I wish that people would do that for me. If I, if they were hearing about me, I'd want them to be like, hey, I heard this thing. How are you doing? Are there other strategies or similar strategies that they recommended?
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Yeah, we went through this thing called mental health first aid and it was excellent. It was really good training. And of course I'm blanking on being able to share specifics with you, but a lot of it was kind of do's and don'ts of how to approach people, how to do it in a way that's not, you know, it's like what you just said, reaching out and say, you know, yeah, is everything okay? And then the follow up question, do you want to talk about it? And if they say no, that's okay. Just say, well, if you change your mind, I'm around. You can, you know, you can always reach out to me. I'm happy to, happy to help if I can.
[00:47:01] Speaker A: Well, I do think a lot of times what I see is that people are afraid to reach out because they're afraid of like either getting an answer that they're not prepared to respond to or that they're gonna like open, like open a box that they don't, they're not really prepped for it. And I always feel like, like, who cares?
It doesn't matter. You're never gonna know. You don't know. Like you can't possibly know what another person is going to say. I don't know what you're going to say next. We're still having this conversation and then I'll respond to it or whatever, but, you know, and maybe I won't respond perfectly, but at least I'm responding to it. I do, I say something.
And yeah, people say silly things all the time, but I think for the most part we're pretty forgiving of, you know, people saying something a little awkward.
It's interesting, I think that they're afraid to reach out sometimes because they're afraid because they don't know what the response will be. And I think you never do. You never know what the response is.
[00:48:03] Speaker B: No, and I think half the bat, I think some people, like you said at the beginning, I don't want to intrude, I don't want to step on their toes. It's none of my business. You know, that's one reason. And then the other reason, like what you were just talking about is you don't know. I won't know how to respond. I'll say the wrong thing. But half the battle is just that person knowing that somebody cares enough to ask the question.
And yeah, you may say something stupid. We've all said something stupid. Certainly we've all had stupid things said to us.
And almost always those are forgiven, those, you know, especially in those uncomfortable conversations. Yeah, they're, they're uncomfortable, but the person just knowing that some, some people don't have anybody asking them, you know, you might be the only person saying, hey, are you okay? If you need someone to talk, I'm here. That can make all the difference in the world, just knowing that there's one person and none of that makes it. It's not easy. It's not easy. But, you know, if everybody is a little more forthcoming with those, you know, reaching, just checking in on people, you know, we can help and just be there for people.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: Well, and I don't know if you want to get into this, but we have both lost a spouse and I think both had crazy things said to us in that process.
But I think the thing that hurt me the. Well, not hurt me the most, but the thing I disliked the most, I guess, were the friends who just disappeared. They just, they didn't know what to say and so they just kind of went away. That was really unfortunate.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: I think you do kind of learn who your friend. When you're going through something like that, you kind of learn, you know, who your real friends are. And I'm lucky that I had a lot of real friends, you know, and a really great support system.
But I was the same way and still am a little bit, even now. But one another reason why people don't talk, you know, someone suffering, suffered a loss.
I don't want to, I don't want to bring it up. I don't want to remind them of it. First of all, you're not reminding them of it. They are. It's there. They know it's there.
They haven't forgotten. You're not reminding them of anything. And secondly, I know when I lost my spouse, I liked talking about her. I liked when people asked about, you know, as on the other side of that fence. And even now, even knowing how I felt, I still am reluctant to ask people. I don't know how they're going to take, you know, but I think most people probably appreciate and probably want to talk about, about that person that they lost or whatever they're mourning. And we're so reluctant to just say and you don't need to go into crazy conversation or anything like that. Just like you said earlier, how are you? My thing. I don't know if this is a Youngstown thing or not, but when I greet people, my greeting is, how you doing? How you doing? Hey, how you doing? But I never say, how are you doing?
That's the question that we need to ask. It's not, how you doing? Oh, I'm good. Oh, I'm good.
[00:50:47] Speaker A: It doesn't matter how bad you are. The answer is always good.
[00:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. But saying, how, how are you? That's a different.
You know, you might get a different response. I don't know. I think about that because I say, how you doing? Probably.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah. It's just a greeting. And I think that is. There is a difference between, like, I think sometimes instead of even asking anything, and this totally comes out of, you know, losing Kip. It's like I. Instead of saying, like, I do that, too. I do the, how you doing? Oh, how you doing? Oh, how are you? Okay. And it's just intended to be a greeting, but then there's the, like, I'm thinking about you, or I hope you're. It's not even a question. I don't. I think I asked the question less because I got a lot of, like, when Kip died, I think I got a lot of the, you know, how can I help? And that's another one. I'm like, I don't know. But if you can just say, like, hey, I'm. You know, I'm thinking of you, and that. That. That feels better to me. I don't. Then I don't have to, like, try to make a decision in that moment, or I can just say whatever I want back, and I can choose. I liked being able to choose whether I wanted to, like, get into it or just be like, thanks, thank you. I appreciate that, and move on.
[00:51:55] Speaker B: Yeah. Just the reaching out means a lot. I'm actually suffering a different type of loss right now. I've had so many people, friends, just call me out of the blue, say, hey, man, how you doing? You know, you okay? Do you need anything or even text? You know, now we have text message. You know, text is a lot more prevalent. And, yeah, it's not as personal and thing, but it means a lot to me when I get a text from someone, hey, just checking on you, you know, Everything okay? You doing all right?
[00:52:21] Speaker A: Well, the nice thing about text, I think you can decide whether to answer or not. You can decide when to Answer. Or how much to answer. Yeah.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: Or how much to answer. Yeah. You can just say, I'm good, thank you. And it meant something to you, or you can maybe I might want to talk to this person.
[00:52:36] Speaker A: Yeah, let's get together or whatever.
[00:52:38] Speaker B: But I think it. It's different. I feel like it's different today than it was. You know, I lost Christina 17 years ago, and there's pros and cons. Communication is different now. I feel like a lot more people are reaching out to me now. It's also. It's easier to reach out now. Not 17 years ago, we still had, I think, the smart. Did I have a smartphone? I don't think I had a smartphone yet, but it's.
Texting was kind of cumbersome here and there, but now it's like, you know, people reach out on, you know, social media or I'm not a big social media guy, but, you know, texting.
It just seems like there's more, there's less. Let's get together and sit down face to face and have a. Have a chat. There's maybe less of that, but overall there's more communication.
And for me, that's probably better. My. When I'm going through something, I like, I like a lot of alone time, but I also like to know that there's people out there, you know, that if I need something, they're there. I'm really lucky with the support system I have.
Not everybody is. I remember thinking about it, you know, how do you go through something like that by yourself? And people do it every day. I don't know how you do. I don't know how you get through something like that without family and friends. I mean, I'm so blessed with that and so thankful for that. But those are the, you know, the people that don't have that big support system. It's even that much more important that be someone, you know, someone thinking about him or asking about them can make all the difference.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Agreed. I heard a lot of stories about, you know, I think grief can bring families together and it can also tear them apart. And there's a lot of stories that I've heard about, you know, families kind of fighting after deaths about. I mean, you know, it's about nothing, really. They're not fighting about anything. They're just. They're just upset. And I think that makes things really hard. But if you have, you know, a friend group or colleagues or a professional, a healthcare, a mental health professional, all of those things really matter and can come in and help you and help you understand. I mean, I talked to people. I had a therapist after Kip died. And it was really helpful to have somebody who knew a lot about family dynamics and be able to say, like, okay, this is, you know, don't worry about this. This is normal. This is, you know, this is how you could approach it if you want. You don't have to. All of that just perspective that they have in working with lots and lots of people in similar circumstances, I think was. It was really helpful for me.
[00:55:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I did. Yeah. I also. I saw someone after Christina passed for a while, too, and I felt like every time I went, I would take away. I would have a little tool that I could use, you know, something to just help deal with the grief and everything.
And the other thing that I thought was really valuable about it is it was someone that you could talk to that you didn't feel. I don't know if I always feel like I'm burdening people. If I'm telling them, asking for this and that, which isn't right. Most people want to help. Most people.
[00:55:36] Speaker A: Your burdens on me aren't going to feel as heavy as my own burdens.
I can give them to you. You can carry them a little bit more easily.
[00:55:44] Speaker B: Right.
But I always struggle with that. And so this was a person that I felt totally comfortable with unloading on whatever I was going through. And also think there may be things that you don't want to share with family or friends, of things that you're thinking or going through or whatever, that this is a professional, this is a person that can help with that, and you can share those things that maybe someone in your life might be a little uncomfortable to share, but it was extremely valuable. And I think I'm very thankful that I don't think the stigma's completely gone with that. But it's so much better than it was, you know, when we were young. And I think it's improving all the time. But there's just. I would recommend for, you know, anybody going through any. Anything, reach out and try it. If it doesn't work, okay. Or if the person doesn't work, you know, you can try someone else, but it's definitely worth trying because if you do find the right person, it could be so helpful.
[00:56:42] Speaker A: That's one thing that I hear from people sometimes. They try it once, they didn't like it. They don't like therapy, so, like, they're done with it. And I'm like, man, I mean, it really depends on that person and your, you know, like how you guys get along together so you can. You should probably try a few people before you totally give it up.
[00:57:00] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And give it. And even one visit with one person, you know, isn't enough. It took, you know, it took me six, seven episodes of Mad Men before I really got it. If I would have given up right away, I would have missed. Missed out on a great show. But it really does, because the first time you're going, you're nervous and you're uncomfortable, and then the next time it gets a little better. And so, yeah, you gotta make. Give it a chance and, yeah, try multiple people. Find the right person, because it's really, really helpful.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for talking with me today. It's been a great conversation.
[00:57:34] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's Nika time. It went very, very quick.
[00:57:39] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to on the Fringe. If today's conversation gave you an idea, challenged your thinking, or reminded you to check in on someone, we'd love to hear from you. Send us your questions, comments, or ideas for future episodes. We're always looking for stories and conversations that help strengthen our industry. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.
